I work for Goonswarm?

Why did no-one tell me? Where's my cheque!?

Jack? Is that you?

Eternum's View On CSM Voting (Time index 1:40)


"I on the other hand, who did not vote--whom in fact did not even leave the house on election day--am in no way responsible for what these people have done and I have every right to complain as loud as I want about the mess that they created that you helped them make and that I had nothing to do with"

...and I am sure after the election is over EVE will improve immediately.






Signed, with all of my heart.
**** you Malcanis

Do away with the CSM, do EVE a favor.

And it do so well after...


It took a mass log off to get CCP to give us a sizable portion of what we have been asking for for years. Engine trails were suddenly "feasible" again, along with a whole host of other additions... no CSM required.

I have no problem with the CSM, but i am wondering when this period pre CSM was, as I have the minutes (or chat logs, whatever you prefer) from the Council meetings in 2003 and 2004

The Bad Old Days
The CSM as it currently stands is not the CSM that was originally pitched by CCP, wounded in the media by the T20/Band of Brothers cheating and corruption scandals. The original CSM was mooted as a body similar to todayGÇÖs Internal Affairs department, a group of elected player-auditors who would ensure that Sabre BPOs were no longer being handed out gratis. After a lot of high-profile press, the GÇÿwatchdog CSMGÇÖ was quietly abandoned after the T20 crisis died down and vanished for almost a year.

When it returned and was actually implemented in 2008, the CSM had transformed into what amounted to a focus group with six month terms. Another trumpet blast of loud, high profile media coverage resulted, which nicely covered over the fact that the first CSM was riven with infighting sparked by its controversial and ineffective chairman, Jade Constantine, and the ensuing campaign to oust him from office. The dev blog which wrapped up the CSM1 experience was an exercise tiptoeing around the fact that absolutely nothing of note had been accomplished. The CCP rep assigned to the CSM was reduced to saying that GÇ£We decided against enumerating the CSM's accomplishments - this is not a pissing contest. We know they made a difference and we are confident that the council will continue to make a difference.GÇ¥ Yet in every CSM since the first, CCP has worked hard to enumerate the accomplishments and relevance of the council.

The BPOs postdate the CSM by quite a while..

THIS is the CSM I was referring to:

CSM2004

Or to go even older:

CSM2003

Where as some of us say same **** different day.

I think we have already established that since I stay home on election-day I get to complain as loudly and as often as I want about the mess that you and the people that you voted for make


Also, get less angry and spend more time concocting more valid/logical counter arguments. You will find your time on the eve forums more enriching.

Finally, someone else sees it.

CSM is a layer of government that doesn't actually do things to improve the game (well, that's not their intention for having some game power, it's to game the system for their advantage or pet ideas. CCP allows it because they keep the players deluded in any sense of real power). It keeps the game status quo and stagnate.

Essentially this is what SOE once had with their booster club, which in turn got scuttled due to the same game interference CCP did with helping BoB and more (the whole Aeralik scandal was a mess or messes). It's designed as a way to hype/promote a game according to how CCP wants it, with an illusion of some control (as those who run are control freaks and have egos to match...just look at the arrogance of some of the current CSMs running for examples).

So seen it before, and in the end the same history is repeating itself, in yet another niche game.

Want to see real changes that matter. Practical changes that dovetail in improving the game for more actual new players...not more alts for vets (a stagnate community).

Because it is. The lipstick is a different color, but a pig is still a pig. Other games had/have the same booster club, and it turns out the same: Egos amok, status quo alive, game is stagnate, and overrun by bots (I quit WoW to get away from the bots in the BGs, LFR and even dungeons now, thinking no macros in EvE = no multibox software. Wrong! It's okay to have THOSE macros).

Look at the canvas. Look were this is all going. CCP profitting, yet the game is but alts and bots (how many actual new players play EvE each day? Not many, it's vets who keep adding more accounts). And players seem oblivious to it all, as they're seeing their tiny corner of the painting and careless of the overall picture...and how ugly it is.

I GOT MINE!!!

As a dumb "whale".

If you want the same o' same o' bot filled and alt filled games, keep voting. Tail chasing is fun, huh?

That's the script you go by and probably even believe.

I vote with my wallet. That's the real powerbroker. As even CCP can't deny the power of greenbacks.

Blizzard was arrogant too. They dreamed up a new TBC remake in Cata. Got carried away and simply told players to "L2P". After that one blog post, 300,000 players unsubscribed (almost like next day even, the drop was that dramatic). In the end, they lost 1.7mil subscriptions, cut over 600 employees, the most in their history. They changed quickly, and the rhetoric of Cata being the best thing since slice bread, turned into the worst expansion in WoW's history.

Money talks. Bullshit walks.

I'm a multigamer, Frying. I play many games. Have many accounts. My accounts in EvE show it's paid for this month. Hmmmm...how do you be unsubscribed like that, again? Hmmm, my main WoW account shows it's paid until May, too.

You like to believe EvE is a special snowflake among all gaming, so unique it's above all the other muck games can produce?

It isn't.

It's a game with the same players even (who do play other games too) and they play for their reasons and interests.

Some may find interest in CSM elections. Some won't. But if you're so deluded to think because what you think isn't done the way you like it, they're "unloyal" and what not?

Sit down and recheck that ego.

Hint: MMOs share the same player pool. Many play more than 1 MMO. The trick is getting them to play your MMO and keep playing it.

As for Blizzard: let's put it this way, they saw the abyss, and pulled back.

No game is an island. No game is immuned to the pocketbook. Even Goliath can fall, quick.

By opening more alt accounts, you mean?

(Psst...devs are going to shut down this thread for an overabundance of whole post quoting, like the last thread).

And the CSM candidate seems to know nothing about the steadily growing trend of alt accounts throughout New Eden.




Run to that vote booth people. We have a winner. Maybe next you can tell us how there are nothing but bots in empire, and in nullsec there are next to none? (Get's Popcorn.)

Here are two little pro-tips for you Mr doom. 1. don't presume that these forums are an accurate representation of people in game. Most people who play can't stand this cesspool of a forum, and don't even bother reading it. Secondly, do not base your theory on "how few alt accounts" their are in eve, based primarily on a forum populated in large part by alt posting characters.


There you go, two pro tips for free. No need to thank me.

because fixed bloc voting doesn't interest me perhaps?

i think i can choose the winners right now.. same sh*t different year.

Then don't site it as a source M`kay? It makes you look stupid. K, thx. Kisses.

Stop fighting else I'll have to brings you twos togets... now kiss & make up

lmao. Isnt that why i said i didnt vote... duh... sorry about you...

Hmmm now that is an interesting point... I wonder what % of NULL residents don't vote

At this point, your'e really going to want to cite anything that starts with "The realistic facts".

I seem to have made you angry. I am pleased. And here is me drawing it in crayon for you, "there are more alt accounts now then there was years ago" and "it is do to a steadily growing trend". Guess what, these two ideas fit together quit nicely.


* Eternum wipes the drool off of snow axe's mouth and gives him a comforting kiss on the forehead. It's ok honey, no one noticed your stupid.

It's filling all the issues an industrialist would be concerned about in the questionaire (e.g., more ME/PE slots for one), and seeing your platform near the end of the list.

I mean even Greene Lee who isn't running on any industry platform came in higher than you. One WH candidate got 71%.

If you really were about industrial concerns a WH candidate shouldn't beat you on your own platform.

Please, define this "hardcore" player that you speak of. After you explain what hardcore players are, I would like to see some literature clearly defining how they only have one account, and some statistics as to whether or not having one players a role in said "hardcoreness".

Here let me help. **** you snow axe and the pansy ass horse that your fail alt wardec corp/alt suicide ganking corp rode in on. Come and gank my freighter, this is my main. I am currently residing in Jita.



There. Now I made it easier.

You seem to be using allot of "loose" terms that can mean anything you want them to mean as this thread progresses. If you strengthen your debate skills you will no longer need to use "loose" terms as often. Clarity makes for a better debate.

Vote Mangala!

Other than him, vote for whoever has the sexiest avatar.

I find it awful that the power blocks can use the CSM to their advantage, and come across as complete asshats in doing so. Id like for CCP to move all winners into a "CSM Corp" and limit their involvement with their corporations, which would hopefully make them focus on bettering the game overall, instead of the part which benefits them.

Which is a new phenomena because?

@Doom

That does not even make sense. In fact, it is barely cohesive when compared to the rest of the statements made by both myself and others in this thread thus far.

Then the outcome will be exactly the same as it has been for the past couple of years won't it?

**** that jazz. The past few years have demonstrated that the alt army that major null sec alliances have openly admitted to activating, solely for the purpose of manipulating the CSM vote wins by a landslide. Now that CCP has instituted this new "fix" to the old voting system, it will be even easier for these null sec focus groups to achieve their desired representatives.


CCP has made it harder to keep the null sec guys from dominating everything. It is even worse this year then it was the year before. In true CCP fashion, they tried to buff something and ended up breaking it even worse, without ever addressing the true root of the problem.

3. Null sec people tend to have allot more accounts then the people in empire do.
4. Empire people have learned not to give a damn about null sec
5. Mission runners have got the hint that CCP, CSM's and null sec people seem to have it out for them.
6. Empire miners just want to mine in peace and relax after a long day of work. So vote for what?
7. Null sec is filled with a handful of alliances, empire is filled with countless corporations. Why one can pool more votes in a single direction is obvious.
8. People don't really think that the CSM can do anything for them.
9. People don't really "get" what the CSM is supposed to be.
10. Goonswarm goes to great lengths to portray themselves as a badguy in game, ironically people start to believe it and alternatively they start to believe that badguys now own the CSM. Simple political logic, not rocket science.

And most importantly number 11. When someone logs in after they come home from work all they want to do is play a ******* game that they pay money for. They don't want to vote. It's a game.




I have more but I guess I can stop here. Your stupid is showing sir. I suggest that you zip up.

People are not machines. The study of how people behave in large groups and demographics is not based upon logical thinking. People act on whim, reward, motivation and ease of access. You clearly do not have a firm grasp of how this works by suggesting that the vast majority is some how mentally damaged because they are not doing what you want them to do.




Take me for example. If I thought any of those candidates could actually bring about a meaningful and positive change I would vote. I however do not. I am not going to participate in a flawed system and be goated into voting for the most polished of 8 turds. That is my objective view on the subject. That view is governing my actions. I am not simply not voting because of some handicap or laziness. I am choosing not to vote because none of the options given are in line with my personal set of principles. Nor do the candidates uphold my agenda.

I am also aware of how staked the deck is in certain people's favor. Nothing is going to change that under the current voting system.


That sir, is why I don't vote.

Now your stupid really is showing


Thx. You demeaned your own intelligence on a public forum, better then anything I could have said on my own.

I've always loved this false argument. If don't vote, you didn't participate so you have no right to criticise. If you do vote, you already had your say, so you have no right to criticise.

Basically, you're pretending to have instituted a democratic tool for policy determination, but really you're just telling the plebes to shut up.

Oh, this applies to Eve too.

These are nullsec candidates.

Not one a true high-sec candidate concerned over high-sec issues...not even one true marketeer who lives on Jita fumes in the bunch (and no, PB, doesn't qualify). Be it Caldari; Amarr; Gallente or Minmatar.

Not one.

So if you used this campaign pitch and actually convinced players to vote "nullsec out"...the only players left are WH candidates and they don't care about nullsec/lowsec/highsec, they live in their own world.

Just pointing out. Most null candidates know more about high sec than most high sec only players.

I don't want more ME/PE slots in Empire. I don't see a need for them, as it's not hard to get slots of your own, that you can fill at will. And you should know, Industry doesn't mean 'Industry in High-sec'. It /should/ mean 'Industry in any security sector (plus wormholes)'.

I don't fill /your/ vision of industry.

Perhaps I should refer you to the 5th paragraph of my Jita park post.

The industry side of my campaign is for /my/ vision of industry.

I can't really play with you because you are demonstrating an inability to comprehend what you are reading. Playing with you requires pages of pyramid posting just to keep you on track, which would only result in a closed thread. Disagreeing with me is one thing, putting your fingers in your ears and humming, while completely ignoring anything that I am saying is another.


If you don't agree with me fine, but you can't just say Naah, not address it, not pose a legitimate counter argument (to what I am saying) and continue onward to parroting your side--of which--I have already addressed and completely contradicted.


You are a weak debater. Thus I cannot "play" with you. At best I can amuse myself by calling you a stupid poopyface.

That's fine if you are not fulfilling the role of a representative. If you are, you are expected to conduct yourself according to a certain code and ethic.


Like I said, not rocket science. You people just have agendas.

Show me the literature that states specifically that they are there to slap down ideas. Also, please clarify how they identify said stupid ideas that CCP wants them to slap down. Do you have a website I can reference?

if you actually want to get anything worth while done; yes it is.

Here you go ******** spacemonkey.





It's everywhere my ******** spacemonkey. Didn't you make it to high school yet?

Ummm.... so we are back at using this cesspool of a forum as "legitimate reference material" again are we?






You just say whatever the hell you want to try and enforce your view on other people. I just don't have the time to pyramid quote all of your dodging, back pedaling and blabbering. But I imagine at least some of the other readers here have noticed none the less.


I know I have

Snow Axe promotes the corporate run and lobbied bullshit facade version of democracy. More news at 11:00!!

No, not at all. You are just failing at reading comprehension again.

it doesn't matter what you think if you vote

i see you've never watched any wrestling have you?

You did no such thing. You simply disregarded and misread several of my posts and then patted yourself on the back.

You sir, are deluding yourself because i have been happily kicking your ass repeatedly over two days (soon to be 3 )

The last resort of a debater that no longer has a leg to stand on. You try being in an argument with several forum trolls at the end of the second day and see if you remember them all. I am doing pretty good

Bullshit...mate. The CSM does not have the authority to reject an idea that is both well worded and has a notable following--and then choose not bring said idea to the table at CCP. He/she may do so anyway, but that is not in their actual authority. Sorry. No way no how.

Any well worded, well thought out idea that has a notable (or sizable) following by the playerbase, is meant to be brought before CCP. CCP decides the merit of the idea, and whether or not said idea is feasible. The CSM does not. The CSM is just a representative.



It can't be more clear. You are just stubborn somehow bred with stupid.

I think the Frying Doom Bot is falling into some kind of weird feedback loop. It is now not making any sense at all.